Following your wonderfully human story, Russ, this discussion is a terrific bonus lesson in culture as language. Thanks for letting it stay up.

Cheers, Charles

One thing I certainly agree with what you said and I will augment here: there ARE many things in life that we don’t know we don’t know. (yeah, you might have to read that a bit slowly if it’s a new concept for you) Maggie showed me a competency chart where there are four quadrants:

you know what you know

you know what you don’t know

you don’t know what you know

you don’t know what you don’t know

Interestingly, these are in exponentially ascending order; knowing what you know is infinitesimally smaller than not knowing what you don’t know.

Now having said that Lori, did you realize that some of what you write is dangerously assumptive?

You assume people are going to think you are going a bit “overboard” with your views.

You assume that Maggie comes from a “culture of women pleasing men as the focus of their lives”.

You guess what I might say, “We aren’t a violent family…”

The biggest assumption that comes through is that Maggie and I don’t teach our daughters healthy values.

You don’t know what you don’t know… recall the old saying about assuming – enough said.

Maggie’s personal experience with domestic violence, not in just one but in two relationships, has given her the strength and courage to make dramatic life changes. One of her dreams she shared with me when we were dating was that she wanted to give her daughters a role model relationship – to show her daughters that a loving relationship WAS indeed possible.

We have had MANY discussions in how to conduct ourselves in front of the girls. It is ongoing, since neither one of us claims to have mastered parenting… not by a long shot. Lori, you’ll be glad to know that your viewpoints were well taken. Maggie and I are still discussing them nearly a week after reading your initial comments.

One suggestion that I will pass along from Maggie – she tells ME this all the time, so it’s like I get a chance to teach what I need to hear; it isn’t so much the message that’s a problem… sometimes it’s the delivery. Yes, we all occasionally need to hear things that are a bit hard to take. The WAY you say something can make all the difference in the world between teaching someone and hurting someone.

I’m still learning to teach. It’s a challenging job! There is so much that I don’t know that I don’t know.

As for my friend Judy – I’m going to come clean and tell everyone here that Judy and I go way back to high school. We weren’t exactly friends during those years from 1967-’71… we were in a couple of classes together. It wasn’t until recently with the likes of Classmates.com and FaceBook that we really connected as friends. So if you read a little bit of ‘friend defending friend’ in Judy’s reply, now you know.

As you might guess, Judy and I share the same style of humor, wit, mixed with a healthy dose of sarcasm. We’re from old New England ‘tell-it-like-it-is’ stock. And when Judy mentioned that she’s dealt with just about everything in the past 55 years, she wasn’t kidding. Her story is amazing! She is one strong lady who certainly knows how to stand up for herself. With her husband John, she has managed to raise a strong, self-assured and yes, beautiful daughter. I am most proud to count Judy and her family among my friends.

So there you have it folks – two extremes. Do you have any personal experiences to share that would support either side? Or do you have another angle that isn’t even covered here?

Remember, as Lori so aptly pointed out, “You don’t know what you don’t know.”

That is, until others add to the knowledge base. Your views and experiences are VALUABLE. Someone, somewhere will gain so much from YOU… and only YOU - that’s how important YOU are to the world.

You gotta Love That Feeling!

Little girls want to be like Mommy and I think if Russ had said “Mom looks pretty” it would have elicited the response “Am I pretty like Mommy?” Is it just the word “hot” you object to? Or comments about looks in general?

I think that you took a snippet of Russ’s story and turned it into a preaching platform for your favorite agenda. It makes you sound like someone’s uptight maiden aunt or a feminist fanatic. Really. A woman who looks “hot” isn’t marginalized, dehumanized or victimized. She just happens to look great. A woman who thinks she HAS to look hot has a problem, however.

To blame Dads who think their wife is attractive for women who manipulate men through their looks is ridiculous. Women like that have way more problems going on than a Dad who said some chick was hot looking. (I’m using the word “chick” just to aggravate you, by the way, how am I doing?)

Lori, with all due respect, take a chill pill and enjoy the humor for what it is. You overthink it a little too much. And as a woman who’s dealt with just about everything in the last 55 years, I have to say that it’s still real nice to hear my husband describe me as “hot” and “beautiful” now that I’m wearing glasses and have added some weight here and there. (and there and here) Furthermore, my daughter says it makes her feel good to hear Dad talk to Mom like this after more than 20 years of being married. She says a lot of her friends come from broken homes. She says it makes her feel safe to know that Dad and Mom love each other and think each other are very cool. (and yes, hot!)

(and yes, we’ve done the appropriate debriefing–our daughter knows that what’s in the heart and mind are far more important than the latest hair cut–but there is nothing WRONG with looking terrific.) Our kid happens to be one attractive girl who has been described as “hot” by boys. I heard some stupid boy make a lewd comment to her at the bus stop to which she coolly said, “Just don’t mess with me, I can bench press 200 pounds.” (and she can) I suppose you think her response is “violent.” You betcha. We’ve taught her to never be anyone’s victim. After all, if you truly are “hot” through no fault of your own, you have to be able to deal with others’ stupid attitudes.

Be that as it may, people like you horrify me more than people like Russ. Even if you do make some valid points, you are one scary person. ( I wanted to write “broad” there just to tick you off again, but I decided to take the high road.)

Your writing is very fresh and entertaining, but I was horrified by your latest blog post.

As a woman who has helped other women heal from traumatic experiences of the past (and had my own), it is this type of message to your daughter which opens a dangerous door.

Young girls, teens and women struggle with body image, self-esteem, intellectual growth, peer pressure, and media messages. Teaching your daughter that men are happy and satisfied when “mom is hot” instills that to be of value, she must be “hot.”

Now you (and some of your readers) might feel I’m taking this “overboard.” After all, it was just a comment … just one time … just a cute thing.

Have you or your wife ever read Mary Pipher’s classic Reviving Ophelia? Or watched “What Dreams May Come” (particularly when Robin Williams daughter shows herself as the “hot stewardess” because that brought so much please to Williams)?

I’d highly suggest you and your wife read the book “Dads and Daughters: How to Inspire, Understand, and Support Your Daughter When She’s Growing Up So Fast”

Have you ever thoroughly studied the findings of the University of Wisconsin-Madison Neuro Research on how our brains and our lives are actually programmed?

Statements and “cute” situations, as you wrote about above, program your daughter to believe that “hot” is important. That’s so sad and dangerous as she goes into the teen years and chooses a mate.

Young girls, teens and women who are raised in environments where versions of “hot” are applied to women then deal issues of becoming manipulators/pleasers, often finding themselves in domestic violence situations or becoming a perpetrator of this.

With your wife’s background which includes a culture of women pleasing men as the focus of their lives and the domestic violence background, look at the possibility that you don’t know what you don’t know.

For any women who is with a man who did this to their daughter, I would suggest bringing a quick end to that conversation and talk about appropriate roles, boundaries and expectations of women.

I invite you to review the books I recommend (they are not my books nor do I receive any money for recommending them) and to really look at http://www.cnvc.org, which is Marshall Rosenberg’s Center for Non-Violent Communication.

Of course, I would guess that you would say something like “We aren’t a violent family, we don’t talk violently.” But remember you don’t know what you don’t know. The blog post above illustrates a dangerous image of women being taught to your daughter.

It appears you have the heart-based desire to coach others and help others. To be of the highest service in doing this means a consistent process of improving your selves and learning what you don’t know.

Here are a few reviews of the fathers-daughters book, which you don’t need to put in the blog post, but are for your own affirmation.

“Joe Kelly defines the landscape for fathers and daughters in the treacherous domain of America today. He also offers the testimony of other travelers, a map and a first aid kit to help families make it to safety. This book is an essential aid for the fathers of adolescent girls.”
—Mary Pipher, author of Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls

“Joe Kelly points the way for fathers to help raise empowered and healthy daughters—a longtime feminist goal. Dads and Daughters is must reading for men and women alike who want to change the world their daughters will inherit.”
—Leslie R. Wolfe, Ph.D., president of the Center for Women Policy Studies

“Dads and Daughters should go on the required reading list of every one of us dads who want to raise healthy and strong daughters.”
—David Walsh, Ph.D., President and Founder, National Institute on Media and the Family

Thank YOU very much for taking the time to visit, read AND comment. Yes, I am truly blessed with a gorgeous wife and two beautiful step-daughters. With Ambrosia’s birthday coming up in two days, I’m thinking that long after her toys and physical gifts are gone, we’ll still have those ‘Life’ treasures to warm our hearts.

I am also truly blessed and grateful to all my new friends from A-List Bootcamp and the 30-Day ProBlogger Challenge for your encouragement and support. It really means a lot to get this sort of validation from my peers.

You are right on in your closing line, Arvind – Love and gratitude… oh, you gotta Love That Feeling!

It is such stories that make our lives so special and makes us all appreciate the young sweethearts around us.

And great blog by the way – thanks for sharing the journey with us all on the blogging bootcamp:-)

Love and gratitude

Arvind Devalia